Posts by drew sagan

25

Simon - you were right. I was wrong.

by donkey in

jw
friends

bush is undoubtedly the worst president of the usa - ever!!

!

drew sagan

Naw....that would be Jimmy Carter....Bush Jr is the most hated in the last hundred years...

Carter went into the White House without any working knowledge on how to work with the Congress and the Senate. He was stonewalled every step of the way. I also tend to believe that Presidents get way to much credit for when things go good, and way to much blame for when things go bad.

There are things that Bush Jr. has been a part of that are 100% his responsibility, mainly the Iraq war. He went out every day and sold it to the American people. He was active and vocal in calling the nation to support war on Iraq.

This country was plunged into an unnecessary war. Rather than looking at containment for rouge states, Bush foolishly thought he could bring about regime change which entered into 'nation building', something that has proven track record for not working. Eventually even hard hitting conservatives like Bill Buckley and George Will have seen this as a mark on our country.

14

$10 gas

by JimmyPage in

my father-in-law heard from someone who has connections with the higher-ups that the society thinks gas will be $10 a gallon in january.

i'm "bookmarking" that statement on my calendar.

if january comes around and gas isn't $10 i'm going to remind him of "what the society said".

drew sagan

The entire American infrastructure is built on one thing, cheap automobile fuel.

For decades highways have been built, small towns have been seen as irrelevant, public transportation is underfunded and underused, and railways have been dismantled. Lobbies for the trucking, auto, and oil industries have reined supreme. No one ever expected cheap energy to go away.

Many people are not within walking distance of certain necessities. Huge distances stand between stores and residential housing.

Because our infrastructure cannot be changed fast enough to make up for all the years of terrible neglect America is now in a technological race for cheap fuel. We are looking for the next big thing. Rather than find ways to design our country in a way that tones down consumption we are instead betting on the idea that one day it can all be powered by cheap sources. It seems like one hell of a gamble.

14

MTS School???

by LearningMore in

could someone explain what mts is?

i am assuming it is ministerial training school, but i don't really know the significance of it.

i keep hearing reference to it, but i guess i don't understand who attended, and what sort of prestige it provided.

drew sagan

WTWizard, your comments are on target with the experiences of a few people I have known that went through the MTS system.

An amazing thing about MTS, they don't even provide a place for these guys to stay on the Watchtower facilities. He had to stay at one of the 'friends' home and had to make a commute every day to get to were his classes were. He worked part time at a low paying job and never had any money. During his time in MTS his car broke down and had all kinds of trouble.

After he came back from MTS his assignment was to go to a congregation that was about an hours drive from were he currently was. I remember seeing him go through all that work of MTS just so he could get sent to another congregation in the area. I had no idea what the point of it all was. One of the guys he went to MTS with who lived on the other side of the state was shipped to the same congregation. It has a good number of years now (at least 6) since these guys went to MTS. One has been moved to a congregation that is really close. That's it. So one guy goes to two congregations in close proximity, another goes to the same one an hour away from were he used to live.

For such an exclusive program they sure dish out some pretty mundane work. Both guys have since gotten married. One couple hopes one day they can get into Gilled. I remember that MTS grad telling me how Gilead is all about creating people who work in administrative positions and isn't about missionary work anymore. He seemed really excited about hopefully getting that job one day. I wondered what made him any different from people in 'the world' who worked their whole life for careers that brought the presage. This MTS 'spiritual champion' that everybody looked up to was totally focused on getting a job, it had little to do with 'spiritual things'.

Ditto on the idea of turning down an assignment. He specifically told me stories of people who turned down assignments and were never asked to do anything again.

17

Martin Luther Sounds like He's talking about the WTBTS in the 1500's!

by AuntBee in

usually i'm just a lurker.

i'm a chrirstian concerned for a jw teen, and wanting to understand what he's going through, and where he's coming from i don't usually post, but this morning i came upon this while reading from the sermons of martin luther , volume 1. he's speaking about luke 21:28.. "the godless fanatical preachers are to be censured who in their sermons deprive people of these words of christ and faith in them, who desire to make people devout by terrifying them and who teach them to prepare for the last day by relying upon their good works as satisfaction for their sins.

here despair, fear and terror must remain and grow and with it hatred, aversion and abhorrence for the coming of the lord, and enmity against god be established in the heart; for they picture christ as nothing but a stern judge whose heart must be appeased by works, and they never present him as the redeemer, as he calls and offers himself, of whom we are to expect that out of pure grace he will redeem us from sin and evil.. such is always the result where the gospel is not rightly proclaimed.

drew sagan

I see were you are coming from AuntBeeThe only reason I brought up what I did was because i've seen a number of individuals and ministries think that the only way to help JWs is to give them their version of Christianity. Convincing a person of some theological point is sometimes put as more important than some of the basics in dealing with Cults. Some groups even define 'cults' not by their behavior but by what ideas they have about God, and how that differs from their own more traditional christian views.

IP_SEC I agree the sentence you quoted of mine wasn't well stated, and somewhat contradictory. I think that in context with everything I wrote my main point was that the general atmosphere created by the Watchtower is quite conductive to influencing its members (and potential members) decisions and choices they would possibly not make otherwise. Of course this is still their own personal choice to be influenced by such forces, but that's not what I was talking about.

17

Martin Luther Sounds like He's talking about the WTBTS in the 1500's!

by AuntBee in

usually i'm just a lurker.

i'm a chrirstian concerned for a jw teen, and wanting to understand what he's going through, and where he's coming from i don't usually post, but this morning i came upon this while reading from the sermons of martin luther , volume 1. he's speaking about luke 21:28.. "the godless fanatical preachers are to be censured who in their sermons deprive people of these words of christ and faith in them, who desire to make people devout by terrifying them and who teach them to prepare for the last day by relying upon their good works as satisfaction for their sins.

here despair, fear and terror must remain and grow and with it hatred, aversion and abhorrence for the coming of the lord, and enmity against god be established in the heart; for they picture christ as nothing but a stern judge whose heart must be appeased by works, and they never present him as the redeemer, as he calls and offers himself, of whom we are to expect that out of pure grace he will redeem us from sin and evil.. such is always the result where the gospel is not rightly proclaimed.

drew sagan

A understand why the comparison would be made.

I'm careful not to get to attached to such comparisons. For what it's worth I don't think Luthers situation was really all that similar to the JWs today.

I would say that if you want to understand what this JW is going through, you might want to step back and think of it on a very basic level. If you believe that this person needs your version of Christianity to be happy I believe you are missing the point. Many make this mistake.

I think it much more important to understand that the individual JW really is being forced into not thinking for himself. This transcends religious belief. This is about attitude towards other people. Do people have the right to choose for themselves what to believe, or should they be chased down into a corner? I believe that many JWs are held by what can only be described as emotional blackmail through policies such as shunning. As was mentioned in the quote provided fear is used as well.

Many people in groups like the JWs aren't making choices based upon what they think is best. Rather they are forced and manipulated to believe that making a choice a certain group wants them to make is Gods will.

I'm most concerned not that people hold different beliefs than me, but that it's not completely of their own free will that they believe them.

Sorry for that rant but I think a good distinction needs to be made.

11

Branch Davidians thought it was Armagedon ane died what would bethel do?

by Witness 007 in

1993 the atf storm the waco compound and david koresh and 82 followers burned to death.

to them the attack was the begining of armagedon, and the furfillment of prophecy.

the more the atf pushed, the more they thought they were god's people, who were being persecuted, and pushed into the apocalypse.

drew sagan

The Watchtower is not a geographically isolated cult, at the very least not like the Branch Davidians were. It is an unfair comparison.

21

2008-09 convention FULL PROGRAM

by metajw in

jw
friends

can someone please scan the program from the "guided by god's spirit" district convention?

drew sagan

I think I just had an orgasm... I just realized I haven't been to an assembly in about 18 years! Thank God I don't have to hear that chicken shit anymore.

Thanks for that subtle observation ;)

4

Rutherford's Comfort all that mourn mp3

by jaydee in

comfort all that mourn .

mp3 j. f. rutherford.

have a listen ............ http://www.sendspace.com/file/j2zmb6.

drew sagan

thanks!

18

Must FORCE your loved ones to take blood = like Heavens Gate cult suicide!

by Witness 007 in

i ve been disturbed by some people making comments like..."well i would respect my witness partners choice not to take blood.".

consider 1997 marshall applewhite is leader of the heavens gate cult, he convinces 38 members that armagedon is coming and to escape being "recycled" they need to escape in a spaceship hidden in the tail of the hale-bopp comet.

to get on board they need to commit suicide...which they did.

drew sagan

We are dealing with two very different beasts here. Yes, they both are beasts, but they are also very different from one another.

I think there is all to often a tendency to generalize cults in such a way so that we highlight similarities without ever trying to understand their differences.

In the case of suicide cults, mostly all find sanctuary in some geographical area, albeit a house, a compound, an apartment, or something of the like. They cut themselves off from society physically, and usually it is pretty extreme. While the JWs do refrain from contact with the outside world, it is a limited.

Yes the Watchtower does have their own facilities were people live that are cut off from society (kind of), but not all their members are there. They are a much more subtle group. They have actually created some pretty complex and sophisticated ways to balance their interaction with modern society.

It is the subtle way the Watchtower functions that makes it different from very small extremist groups.

I think there is another aspect to remember as well. Most JWs never have to deal with the blood issue (and a good many pray they don't have to, I know I did!). Because they never personally have much contact with the subject, it is easy for them to say that they don't want blood transfusions. Those who face this challenge are in a minority. Everybody in heavens gate faced suicide, but only a fraction of JWs face death by the blood issue (and of those that face it some come through and survive).

If every single JW faced death because of not taking a blood transfusion then the religion never would put forward this doctrine IMO. The possibility that a majority of JWs would actually have to deal with the reality of this is slim to none, thus it's continuation.

20

Hello Everyone

by nurse09 in

jw
friends

i have read this boeard for some time.

every posting that i have read has helped tremendously.

it is good to read of others experiences.

drew sagan

I too read the board a long time before I first decided to join in. Welcome!